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Thanks for your submission. I shall answer your questions and submit some for you regarding Mark 16:16.
MARK 16
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on
the sick, and they will recover."
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying
signs. Amen.
My Questions:
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Is the "gospel" something to be preached?
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What is the desired effect from preaching the gospel?
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Is "belief" in this passage connected to "gospel" or separated?
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Is "baptism" then connected to "gospel" with "belief"?
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If "belief" is connected to gospel, then why would not baptism be connected?
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Is the "saved" in this passage connected to the "gospel" and therefore salvation from sin?
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If belief is essential to obeying the gospel and having remission of sins, then why would baptism
not be connected with belief and salvation (cf. Acts 22:16; 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21)?
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Is it fair to say that you teach "Belief - baptism = salvation"? How do you reconcile that
to Jesus' "Belief + Baptism = Salvation"?
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Where in the scriptures is baptism placed AFTER SALVATION? (All the passages I have read of
it show it to be prior to salvation.)
<<Does it teach that unless you are baptized you will not be saved? >>
Yes. Ask any honest unbiased individual what "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved" means? They will say, "He
who believes and is baptized shall be saved!" If Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized will received $20.00" you could
not keep the Baptists out of the baptistery! Would you be willing to meet in a public discussion to affirm: "We are saved
through faith alone, before and without water baptism"? I will be willing to engage in a public discussion (min. 2 day preferable
4 day) affirming that "Baptism, to the penitent believer is for the remission of sins" as long as your church or an affiliate
sponsors half of it.
<<May I ask you some other questions? Verses 17 and following state that certain signs follow those who believe.
Do you cast out devils? Do you speak in tongues? Do you pick up serpents? Can you drink deadly poison and not get sick? Do
you lay hands on people and heal them. If you don’t do these things then have you truly believed?>>
The answer to all of these questions except the last is "NO." The answer to the last is "YES." Reason: demon possession
was temporary (see Zech 13:1ff and my PPT on "Demon Possession" http://www.sunnysidechurchofchrist.com/powerpoint.html which shows that it doesn't exist any longer. With no demon possession available, people can still believe without
casting out demons.) Furthermore "speaking in tongues" ceased when the revelation of God was perfected (1 Corinthians 13:8ff).
See my PPT entitled "Lesson Two: The Apostles & Prophets" http://www.sunnysidechurchofchrist.com/churchgovernment.html where the above is proven. Also, spiritual gifts were given through the apostles hands (Acts 8:18). Since we
do not have apostles today, we do not have spiritual gifts and one can therefore truly believe without speaking in tongues
or picking up serpents. These signs also "confirmed the word" (see Mk. 16:20). Since the word is confirmed and doesn’t'
need to be "re-confirmed" one can truly believe without performing signs. Signs were not to show one's subjective faith so
much as they were to confirm the message.
<<I think you would disagree with me. Of course, I don’t believe you need to do any of these things to become
a Christian-nor do I believe you need to be baptized.>>
You are robbing any relevance of Mark 16. Your approach reduces it to "filler" in the Bible. With your logic you can throw
out belief with baptism! If not, why not as they are both connected in this passage? What is dangerous is placing a "creed
filter" between the Bible and the brain. When a human creed conflicts with clear passages of scriptures, men loyal to the
creed will compromise the scripture rather than condemn the creed.
<<The devil will use a scripture verse out of context as he did with Jesus during the temptation. Cults do the same
thing.>>
Yes, I agree. And it is devilish to take, as you have, the thief on the cross as a stand alone text for proof that one
can be saved without baptism. Why not use the same argument denying the "death and blood of Christ?" Consider. . . .Jesus
saved the thief on the cross before Jesus shed his blood. In fact, he saved several before he died and was resurrected (i.e.,
Lk. 5:20, 21). Therefore, why not contend that Jesus didn't have to shed his blood or be resurrected to be saved? I want you
to answer that. Further, you don't want to be saved like the thief, Mr. Murrey, so why even go there? Do you want to be crucified
prior to your salvation? Do you want to live a life under the authority of the Old Covenant or the New? Do you only want to
be saved if Jesus directly pronounces you saved to your face? Do you want to die right after your salvation? No, you don't
want to be saved like the thief. You only want one portion of the example to tie with your rebellion against the clear dictates
of scripture. Why not run to the cross of Christ for salvation rather than a thief's. . .when you do, you will find two clear
truths:
WHAT SAVES:
ROMANS 5:9, 10
"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood [THE CROSS, SJW], we shall be saved from wrath
through Him. (10) For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son [THE CROSS, SJW], much
more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
WHEN WE ARE SAVED BY THE CROSS:
ROMANS 6:3-6
"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized [WHEN, SJW] into Christ Jesus were baptized into
His death [WHAT, "CROSS" SJW]? (4) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised
from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been united together
in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, (6) knowing this, that our old
man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin."
This shows unequivocally that by the grace of God one is connected to the saving blood of Christ when he is baptized. If
not, why not. But then again, if you cannot understand the clear and simple statement of "He who believes and is baptized
shall be saved," I doubt you will see and believe Romans 5 and 6.
<<However, if one believes, God will put it in his heart to be baptized. In fact, for one not to be baptized is an
act of disobedience to Christ. We are commanded to make disciples and part of that command is baptizing them (initiating them
into the Christian community).>>
I wonder, does God also put it in one's heart to "believe"? Perhaps that is another discussion. You admit that to not be
baptized is disobedience to Christ and also think that God "puts" such a command "in one's heart." What if one believes but
God doesn't place such a command in one's heart. . .is God to be blamed for this fellow's disobedience? Can one be disobedient
to this command and still be saved?
"And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him" (Heb. 5:9)
I hope that you will consider the things in this email in the spirit of love as they have been keyed. Go to this link to
see more information about the thief on the cross. A PowerPoint presentation is also there. http://www.sunnysidechurchofchrist.com/thief_on_the_cross.html
For truth,
Steven J. Wallace
-----Original Message-----
From: Ruth Wilson [ mailto:ruth@johnankerberg.org]
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 6:26 AM
To: swallace8722@charter.net
Subject: re: Mark 16:16
Re your comment: "All The Ink You Spill Will Not Change What Mark 16:16 Teaches"
Research Staff assistant Rev. Murrey responds:
What does this verse teach? Does it teach that unless you are baptized you will not be saved? May I ask you some other
questions? Verses 17 and following state that certain signs follow those who believe. Do you cast out devils? Do you speak
in tongues? Do you pick up serpents? Can you drink deadly poison and not get sick? Do you lay hands on people and heal them.
If you don’t do these things then have you truly believed?
My guess is that you don’t do all these things and yet if we follow your
logic: you must 1. believe and 2. be baptized in order to be saved then carry it through….if you are saved then 3.
you must cast out devils, 4.speak in tongues 5. pick up serpents 6. drink deadly poison 7. heal people through the laying
on of hands….if you don’t do these things you are not saved.
Right?
I think you would disagree with me. Of course, I don’t believe you need to do any of these things to become a Christian-nor
do I believe you need to be baptized.
You are I both are on dangerous ground when we start "proof texting"; when we base our theological position on one verse
of scripture without regard to its immediate context or the message of the rest of the Bible. No doubt there are difficult
passages in the Bible. How do we understand them-by interpreting them in the light of the rest of the Bible. The Bible is
its own best interpreter. The entire book of Romans and Galatians repudiate salvation by works of any kind…the emphazise
we are justified by faith-not faith plus baptism (circumcision) etc.
The devil will use a scripture verse out of context as he did with Jesus during the temptation. Cults do the same thing.
How do you deal with the thief on the cross? He was not baptized and yet he was clearly saved? If you argue this is an
exception then you open the door to the possibility that one may be saved apart from being baptized.
However, if one believes, God will put it in his heart to be baptized. In fact, for one not to be baptized is an act of
disobedience to Christ. We are commanded to make disciples and part of that command is baptizing them (initiating them into
the Christian community).
Edward E. Murrey IV for
Ruth L. Wilson
Editorial Director
ATRI Journal (online at www.johnankerberg.org)
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